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| 18 | + |
| 19 | +<h1> |
| 20 | +Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco</h1> |
| 21 | +<h2>13 March 2025</h2> |
| 22 | + |
| 23 | +<nav id=links> |
| 24 | +<a href="https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Mar/0010.html"><img alt="Agenda." title="Agenda" src="https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/scribe2/chronometer.png"></a> |
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| 27 | +</header> |
| 28 | + |
| 29 | +<div id=prelims> |
| 30 | +<div id=attendees> |
| 31 | +<h2>Attendees</h2> |
| 32 | +<dl class=intro> |
| 33 | +<dt>Present</dt><dd>dlazin, gpellegrino, ivan, MasakazuKitahara, mgarrish, shiestyle, SueNeu, toshiakikoike, wendyreid</dd> |
| 34 | +<dt>Regrets</dt><dd>-</dd> |
| 35 | +<dt>Chair</dt><dd>wendy</dd> |
| 36 | +<dt>Scribe</dt><dd>mgarrish, wendyreid</dd> |
| 37 | +</dl> |
| 38 | +</div> |
| 39 | + |
| 40 | +<nav id=toc> |
| 41 | +<h2>Contents</h2> |
| 42 | +<ol> |
| 43 | +<li><a href="#98a5">Publication Admin</a></li> |
| 44 | +<li><a href="#f598">Footnotes in EPUB3 - w3c/<wbr>epub-specs#2690</a></li> |
| 45 | +<li><a href="#0347">AOB</a></li> |
| 46 | +<li class=app><a href="#ResolutionSummary">Summary of resolutions</a></li> |
| 47 | +</ol> |
| 48 | +</nav> |
| 49 | +</div> |
| 50 | + |
| 51 | +<main id=meeting class=meeting> |
| 52 | +<h2>Meeting minutes</h2> |
| 53 | +<section></section> |
| 54 | + |
| 55 | +<section> |
| 56 | +<h3 id=98a5>Publication Admin</h3> |
| 57 | +<p id=f0f7 class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> today's meeting is one part admin and one part discussion about footnotes<br> |
| 58 | +<span id=f680>… the latest version of 3.3 is now published so we can move on 3.4</span></p> |
| 59 | +<p id=c34e class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> no, what we have now is the proposed corrections<br> |
| 60 | +<span id=b18f>… there has been an ac vote on whether this is okay and it closed on Tuesday and it passed</span><br> |
| 61 | +<span id=e61f>… we have to publish the final draft still where we integrate the changes and that will be the final version</span><br> |
| 62 | +<span id=d818>… this is informational as Matt and I will take care of publishing it - I have put in the request to publish</span><br> |
| 63 | +<span id=381d>… we can publish next week or week after but that's still to be determined</span><br> |
| 64 | +<span id=6091>… so one more version to publish before it's all done</span></p> |
| 65 | +<p id=eb18 class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> when 3.3 is published the next thing to do is publish the first public working draft of the 3.4 specs<br> |
| 66 | +<span id=dba7>… but we have to resolve to publish and establish the new short names</span><br> |
| 67 | +<span id=24f0>… we will publish epub 3.4, reading systems 3.4, and accessibility 1.1.1</span></p> |
| 68 | +<p id=f79c class=irc><cite><wendyreid></cite> Proposed: Publish the FPWDs of EPUB 3.4, EPUB Reading Systems 3.4, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1.1, with the shortnames epub-34, epub-rs-34, and epub-a11y-111</p> |
| 69 | +<p id=d012 class="phone s03"><cite>mgarrish:</cite> it's problematic to start the accessibility at 1.2 because it involves creating new conformance identifiers</p> |
| 70 | +<p id=2fa4 class=irc><cite><mgarrish></cite> +1</p> |
| 71 | +<p id=2fa5 class=irc><cite><ivan></cite> +1</p> |
| 72 | +<p id=2fa6 class=irc><cite><gpellegrino></cite> +1</p> |
| 73 | +<p id=afa4 class=irc><cite><wendyreid></cite> +1</p> |
| 74 | +<p id=efa4 class=irc><cite><toshiakikoike></cite> +1</p> |
| 75 | +<p id=efa5 class=irc><cite><shiestyle></cite> +1</p> |
| 76 | +<p id=afa5 class=irc><cite><MasakazuKitahara></cite> +1</p> |
| 77 | +<p id=afa6 class=irc><cite><SueNeu></cite> +1</p> |
| 78 | +<p id=6fa5 class=irc><cite><dlazin></cite> +1</p> |
| 79 | +<p id=d175 class=resolution><strong>RESOLUTION:</strong> Publish the FPWDs of EPUB 3.4, EPUB Reading Systems 3.4, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1.1, with the shortnames epub-34, epub-rs-34, and epub-a11y-111</p> |
| 80 | +<p id=8856 class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> to create the short names we need an approval to publish the FPWDs of the specifications<br> |
| 81 | +<span id=d4e6>… recommend we publish 3.3 at the same time to signal that 3.3 is done and we're starting the 3.4 line</span><br> |
| 82 | +<span id=ed3d>… I would propose the 27th to publish so that we have time to prepare</span><br> |
| 83 | +<span id=f06a>… it is a significant message to get out that 3.3 is final and will no longer change</span><br> |
| 84 | +<span id=2459>… would be good to have a blog post to point this out</span></p> |
| 85 | +<p id=50c2 class="phone s04"><cite>SueNeu:</cite> I can write a post but need info on how to do it</p> |
| 86 | +<p id=6bb4 class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> w3c has a blog that we use - Coralie likes to have a review before anything goes out</p> |
| 87 | +<p id=d38e class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> let's work together on this<br> |
| 88 | +<span id=2620>… the last thing in terms of admin is to request a current link to the latest epub 3 version</span><br> |
| 89 | +<span id=094d>… propose to add TR/epub3 and TR/epub-3</span><br> |
| 90 | +<span id=0945>… would redirect to 3.3 for now and then 3.4 when it becomes the new standard</span></p> |
| 91 | +<p id=1883 class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> it will point to 3.3 as long as we are in working draft. once we reach candidate recommendation then it will point to 3.4<br> |
| 92 | +<span id=f905>… if we want to be stricter and only change at REC I can try and push for that but otherwise it would change at CR</span></p> |
| 93 | +<p id=f40b class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> I think it's worth asking because publishing likes to see RECs and don't consider CRs stable enough<br> |
| 94 | +<span id=0e8a>… that's if it's not too much work for the w3c team to do this</span></p> |
| 95 | +<p id=6fc2 class=irc><cite><SueNeu></cite> +1</p> |
| 96 | +<p id=9d95 class="phone s04"><cite>SueNeu:</cite> I agree with Wendy that it makes me nervous to look at the less-than-final spec as current version</p> |
| 97 | +<p id=86e9 class=irc><cite><wendyreid></cite> Proposed: Request new URL redirects for w3.org/TR/epub3 and w3.org/TR/epub-3 to always point to the latest recommendation status version of the EPUB3 specification</p> |
| 98 | +<p id=0d83 class=irc><cite><wendyreid></cite> Proposed: Request new URL redirects for w3.org/TR/epub, w3.org/TR/epub3 and w3.org/TR/epub-3 to always point to the latest recommendation status version of the EPUB3 specification</p> |
| 99 | +<p id=afc7 class=irc><cite><ivan></cite> +1</p> |
| 100 | +<p id=2fc8 class=irc><cite><SueNeu></cite> +1</p> |
| 101 | +<p id=6fc8 class=irc><cite><shiestyle></cite> +1</p> |
| 102 | +<p id=afc8 class=irc><cite><dlazin></cite> +1</p> |
| 103 | +<p id=efc8 class=irc><cite><gpellegrino></cite> +1</p> |
| 104 | +<p id=efc9 class=irc><cite><toshiakikoike></cite> +1</p> |
| 105 | +<p id=afc9 class=irc><cite><wendyreid></cite> +1</p> |
| 106 | +<p id=afca class=irc><cite><mgarrish></cite> +1</p> |
| 107 | +<p id=efca class=irc><cite><MasakazuKitahara></cite> +1</p> |
| 108 | +<p id=dc8a class=resolution><strong>RESOLUTION:</strong> Request new URL redirects for w3.org/TR/epub, w3.org/TR/epub3 and w3.org/TR/epub-3 to always point to the latest recommendation status version of the EPUB3 specification</p> |
| 109 | +<p id=fd68 class="phone s03"><cite>mgarrish:</cite> /epub would always point to the latest version of EPUB, 3 or a future version</p> |
| 110 | +<p id=0991 class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> Yes</p> |
| 111 | +</section> |
| 112 | + |
| 113 | +<section> |
| 114 | +<h3 id=f598>Footnotes in EPUB3 - <a href="https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2690">w3c/<wbr>epub-specs#2690</a></h3> |
| 115 | +<p id=55d5 class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> there has been a discussion on the mailing list about footnotes<br> |
| 116 | +<span id=051d>… I don't know that we have to worry about the pop-up part but there is not a single recommended way to tag footnotes in epub</span><br> |
| 117 | +<span id=9a3c>… reading systems have had to figure out the tagging to create their interfaces</span><br> |
| 118 | +<span id=02fc>… on kobo we have a very convoluted system to create footnotes</span><br> |
| 119 | +<span id=7e08>… we've never made a recommendation on how to create footnotes in a standard way</span><br> |
| 120 | +<span id=e89a>… can we do something about this and what do we recommend?</span></p> |
| 121 | +<p id=9612 class="phone s03"><cite>mgarrish:</cite> Don't know if I have good answers, I was just going to say is that the unfortunate part is that this is by design, but the vocab was there for people to do something<br> |
| 122 | +<span id=0372>… we left it open intentionally, but now it's probably time to standardize on something</span><br> |
| 123 | +<span id=1b5c>… how do we consolidate in a way that doesn't invalidate prior implementations</span></p> |
| 124 | +<p id=ffff class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> this is broader epub trap we set for ourselves in terms of not telling people how to create their content and only giving them tools to help them<br> |
| 125 | +<span id=9be0>… we have a constellation of options for creating footnotes</span><br> |
| 126 | +<span id=2caf>… we should say how to create footnotes but not invalidate previous methods - have to avoid MUSTs that would invalidate content</span><br> |
| 127 | +<span id=3471>… reading systems will have to support the old ways that people have used</span><br> |
| 128 | +<span id=a34b>… we can give guidance on the new best way to create footnotes</span></p> |
| 129 | +<p id=357d class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> as an outsider, what is the difference between footnotes and the footer element</p> |
| 130 | +<p id=629c class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> footnote is more like an aside</p> |
| 131 | +<p id=b759 class="phone s04"><cite>SueNeu:</cite> as someone who creates ebooks I would appreciate clarification - hard to explain to customers that we don't know how these will work<br> |
| 132 | +<span id=1e91>… constraints aren't always bad for creativity</span><br> |
| 133 | +<span id=557b>… can we do human testing to see what works best for people?</span></p> |
| 134 | +<p id=98dd class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> interesting questions - it would be helpful to look at how the different platforms handle footnotes<br> |
| 135 | +<span id=8ec5>… some pop the content up rather than taking you to another place in the book but it may not be the only way</span><br> |
| 136 | +<span id=5556>… is there feedback on the accessibility of the pop ups</span></p> |
| 137 | +<p id=0186 class="phone s05"><cite>gpellegrino:</cite> skippability is an important issue with them<br> |
| 138 | +<span id=3dc3>… one issue here is that indesign is tagging these and not getting the right semantics but we've been working with them so they are just footnotes and not specifically pop ups</span><br> |
| 139 | +<span id=7619>… we should give maybe guidelines on how to author and display footnotes - what happens with backlinks for example if it is a pop up</span><br> |
| 140 | +<span id=bd30>… should the backlink be hidden in these cases</span></p> |
| 141 | +<p id=7c93 class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> one challenge we've run into in making them inclusive is if there is an internal link we would sometimes assume short text was a footnote reference<br> |
| 142 | +<span id=e629>… some more research on this would help to establish the current landscape for footnotes</span></p> |
| 143 | +<p id=d347 class="phone s05"><cite>gpellegrino:</cite> I opened an issue about extended descriptions that is similar to this<br> |
| 144 | +<span id=e5af>… we should have guidance for all these general elements</span></p> |
| 145 | +<p id=10000 class="phone s03"><cite>mgarrish:</cite> One thing we might also want to look at is errors, do they need to be in the same file, a different file, do we need to make this clear?<br> |
| 146 | +<span id=6d74>… potential confusion point, do you expect the RS to go to a different place</span></p> |
| 147 | +<p id=a0ea class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> some publishers make a file for each footnote and put them at the end of the spine</p> |
| 148 | +<p id=07dd class="phone s03"><cite>mgarrish:</cite> Similar to descriptions too, put at the end of the file</p> |
| 149 | +<p id=dab1 class="phone s03"><cite>mgarrish:</cite> this also happens with image descriptions</p> |
| 150 | +<p id=dff5 class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> what can the epub specification do about this? reading systems tend to go their own way</p> |
| 151 | +<p id=f7be class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> as an implementor it would be helpful to have a reliable way to detect footnotes and creat behaviours</p> |
| 152 | +<p id=5450 class="phone s04"><cite>SueNeu:</cite> knowing what markup is easiest to display will help</p> |
| 153 | +<p id=cd13 class="phone s03"><cite>mgarrish:</cite> The more technical, document writing approach to the question, is this something that goes into the specification or into notes or best practices<br> |
| 154 | +<span id=3374>… we're trying not to invalidate anything</span><br> |
| 155 | +<span id=d8a9>… where does this belong, should we look at notes, but we can figure that out as we go</span></p> |
| 156 | +<p id=1946 class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> there are probably several other things that fall into this category of how best to do these things<br> |
| 157 | +<span id=2a1f>… when we have that list of items and the expectations then we can decide if it is best practices or new sections in the specifications</span><br> |
| 158 | +<span id=6848>… we can go either way but we've identified a need for clarification</span><br> |
| 159 | +<span id=6753>… please log more issues if you know other content types with the same kinds of problems</span></p> |
| 160 | +<p id=8dad class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> we'll probably want to pick this up again when more people on the mailing list are present</p> |
| 161 | +<p id=e30c class="phone s01"><cite>wendyreid:</cite> we should also take this to the community group to get their input</p> |
| 162 | +</section> |
| 163 | + |
| 164 | +<section> |
| 165 | +<h3 id=0347>AOB</h3> |
| 166 | +<p id=3e4c class="phone s05"><cite>gpellegrino:</cite> I have a question about the w3c calendar - if I download the invitation is points me to the first meeting we had - not updating to the weekly meeting</p> |
| 167 | +<p id=8c9d class="phone s02"><cite>ivan:</cite> I subscribe to the calendar in apple calendar and you should get automatic updates</p> |
| 168 | +</section> |
| 169 | +</main> |
| 170 | + |
| 171 | +<div id=ResolutionSummary> |
| 172 | +<h2>Summary of resolutions</h2> |
| 173 | +<ol> |
| 174 | +<li><a href="#d175">Publish the FPWDs of EPUB 3.4, EPUB Reading Systems 3.4, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1.1, with the shortnames epub-34, epub-rs-34, and epub-a11y-111</a></li> |
| 175 | +<li><a href="#dc8a">Request new URL redirects for w3.org/TR/epub, w3.org/TR/epub3 and w3.org/TR/epub-3 to always point to the latest recommendation status version of the EPUB3 specification</a></li> |
| 176 | +</ol> |
| 177 | +</div> |
| 178 | + |
| 179 | + |
| 180 | +<address>Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by <a |
| 181 | +href="https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html" |
| 182 | +>scribe.perl</a> version 244 (Thu Feb 27 01:23:09 2025 UTC).</address> |
| 183 | + |
| 184 | + |
| 185 | +</body> |
| 186 | +</html> |
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